The Real Meaning of Thanksgiving: The Triumph of Capitalism over Collectivism PDF Print E-mail
Written by Richard M. Ebeling   
Monday, 24 November 2008 00:00

This time of the year, whether in good economic times or bad, is when we gather with our family and friends and enjoy a Thanksgiving meal together. It marks a remembrance of those early Pilgrim Fathers who crossed the uncharted ocean from Europe to make a new start in Plymouth, Massachusetts. What is less appreciated is that Thanksgiving also is a celebration of the birth of free enterprise in America.

The English Puritans, who left Great Britain and sailed across the Atlantic on the Mayflower in 1620, were not only escaping from religious persecution in their homeland. They also wanted to turn their back on what they viewed as the materialistic and greedy corruption of the Old World.

In the New World, they wanted to erect a New Jerusalem that would not only be religiously devout, but be built on a new foundation of communal sharing and social altruism. Their goal was the communism of Plato’s Republic, in which all would work and share in common, knowing neither private property nor self-interested acquisitiveness.

What resulted is recorded in the diary of Governor William Bradford, the head of the colony. The colonists collectively cleared and worked land, but they brought forth neither the bountiful harvest they hoped for, nor did it create a spirit of shared and cheerful brotherhood.

The less industrious members of the colony came late to their work in the fields, and were slow and easy in their labors. Knowing that they and their families were to receive an equal share of whatever the group produced, they saw little reason to be more diligent their efforts. The harder working among the colonists became resentful that their efforts would be redistributed to the more malingering members of the colony. Soon they, too, were coming late to work and were less energetic in the fields.

As Governor Bradford explained in his old English (though with the spelling modernized):

“For the young men that were able and fit for labor and service did repine that they should spend their time and strength to work for other men’s wives and children, without recompense. The strong, or men of parts, had no more division of food, clothes, etc. then he that was weak and not able to do a quarter the other could; this was thought injustice. The aged and graver men to be ranked and equalized in labor, and food, clothes, etc. with the meaner and younger sort, thought it some indignant and disrespect unto them. And for men’s wives to be commanded to do service for other men, as dressing their meat, washing their clothes, etc. they deemed it a kind of slavery, neither could man husbands brook it."

Because of the disincentives and resentments that spread among the population, crops were sparse and the rationed equal shares from the collective harvest were not enough to ward off starvation and death. Two years of communism in practice had left alive only a fraction of the original number of the Plymouth colonists.

Realizing that another season like those that had just passed would mean the extinction of the entire community, the elders of the colony decided to try something radically different: the introduction of private property rights and the right of the individual families to keep the fruits of their own labor.

As Governor Bradford put it:

“And so assigned to every family a parcel of land, according to the proportion of their number for that end. . . .This had a very good success; for it made all hands very industrious, so as much more corn was planted then otherwise would have been by any means the Governor or any other could use, and saved him a great deal of trouble, and gave far better content. The women now went willingly into the field, and took their little-ones with them to set corn, which before would a ledge weakness, and inability; whom to have compelled would have been thought great tyranny and oppression.”

The Plymouth Colony experienced a great bounty of food. Private ownership meant that there was now a close link between work and reward. Industry became the order of the day as the men and women in each family went to the fields on their separate private farms. When the harvest time came, not only did many families produce enough for their own needs, but they had surpluses that they could freely exchange with their neighbors for mutual benefit and improvement.

In Governor Bradford’s words:

“By this time harvest was come, and instead of famine, now God gave them plenty, and the face of things was changed, to the rejoicing of the hearts of many, for which they blessed God. And the effect of their planting was well seen, for all had, one way or other, pretty well to bring the year about, and some of the abler sort and more industrious had to spare, and sell to others, so as any general want or famine hath not been amongst them since to this day.”

Hard experience had taught the Plymouth colonists the fallacy and error in the ideas of that since the time of the ancient Greeks had promised paradise through collectivism rather than individualism. As Governor Bradford expressed it:

“The experience that was had in this common course and condition, tried sundry years, and that amongst the Godly and sober men, may well convince of the vanity and conceit of Plato’s and other ancients; -- that the taking away of property, and bringing into a common wealth, would make them happy and flourishing; as if they were wiser than God. For this community (so far as it was) was found to breed confusion and discontent, and retard much employment that would have been to their benefit and comfort.”

Was this realization that communism was incompatible with human nature and the prosperity of humanity to be despaired or be a cause for guilt? Not in Governor Bradford’s eyes. It was simply a matter of accepting that altruism and collectivism were inconsistent with the nature of man, and that human institutions should reflect the reality of man’s nature if he is to prosper. Said Governor Bradford:

“Let none object this is man’s corruption, and nothing to the curse itself. I answer, seeing all men have this corruption in them, God in his wisdom saw another course fitter for them.”

The desire to “spreading the wealth” and for government to plan and regulate people’s lives is as old as the utopian fantasy in Plato’s Republic. The Pilgrim Fathers tried and soon realized its bankruptcy and failure as a way for men to live together in society.

They, instead, accepted man as he is: hardworking, productive, and innovative when allowed the liberty to follow his own interests in improving his own circumstances and that of his family. And even more, out of his industry result the quantities of useful goods that enable men to trade to their mutual benefit.

In the wilderness of the New World, the Plymouth Pilgrims had progressed from the false dream of communism to the sound realism of capitalism. At a time of economic uncertainty, it is worthwhile recalling this beginning of the American experiment and experience with freedom.

This is the lesson of the First Thanksgiving. This year, when we sit around our dining table with our family and friends, let us also remember that what we are really celebrating is the birth of free men and free enterprise in that New World of America.

The real meaning of Thanksgiving, in other words, is the triumph of Capitalism over the failure of Collectivism in all its forms.

 

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Comments (20)
wingnuts, plural
20 Saturday, 31 January 2009 11:16
homo pragmaticus
Wingnut actually makes some good points (that doesn't stop him from being a wingnut, though). Why must we identify ourselves with one economic ideology or another (as in, "I'm a Capitalist, too."). For myself, I'm a human being, rather than the representative of an ideology. Capitalism is appropriate for some things, while a more collective approach is appropriate for other things. That's why we have a *mixed* economy! It has always served us well, so long as no particular ideology (say, Capital-ism) has been allowed to run rampant (there are good reasons for the fact that a purely capitalist economy does not exist on earth). If we want to be successful we should keep a cool head and be pragmatic about economics--instead of going completely wingnuts over some idea that has only a tenuous connection to reality (like science-resistant economists do--and that's most of them--they're, as wingnut implies, religious priests and prophets in a belief system--just like he is). And kudos to Historian for pointing out the absurdity of this article.
I'm agreeing with Historian, and I'm a Capitalist, too.
19 Thursday, 18 December 2008 11:12
Mike D 2
I'm sorry to put a cloud on the parade, but I have to agree with Historian. What a bummer to reflect on what is a glorious day by twisting history into propoganda. The principles of capitalism can stand by themselves without rewriting history or prooftexting some old doc.
be careful what you post and read
18 Monday, 08 December 2008 12:26
Historian
The great capitalism support system loves words like collective, triumph, magnanimous, and other sweeping generalizations. It's funny that these assumptions that otherwise suck the life out of the holiday (thank you, Captain Bummer) is supported by tiny, specific trinkets from an arcane guv'nors memoirs. How far will you go to say you like capitalism? A T-shirt or bumpersticker? That's cool. but writing drivel like this is the equivelent of putting on a big chicken suit and holding a sign down by the interstate in front of a local TV crew needing something to keep donors watching. If you like it, support it, believe it, whatever, go for it. But don't pass stupidity off for actual fact. The internet makes geniuses of us all! Too bad it doesn't make writers out of capitalists. But in fairness to my brother capitalists, as I sat down with my family around the Thanksgiving turkey, I said "family who I love, remember that although we've not seen each other often this year, and we've travelled far to get here to insure that we have this meaningful time as family, please do remember that this moment signifies the great triumph of capitalism over not just one form, but ALL forms of collectivism." What a dummy!!!!!
this is the dumbest thing i've ever read.
17 Monday, 01 December 2008 13:14
capitalism over collectivism?
capitalism over collectivism? great triumph? mighty capitalism almost fell save for a giant collective bailout. spout all you want to about it. nothing gets a capitalist going like the notion that they are dumb or crazy. happy thanksgiving, turkey!
Food For Thought
16 Wednesday, 26 November 2008 14:22
One Of Many
First official document proclaiming
"THANKSGIVING"
As we know it today
Came after the event below

The year was 1637.....700 men, women and children of the Pequot Tribe, gathered for their "Annual Green Corn Dance" in the area that is now known as Groton, Conn.

While they were gathered in this place of meeting, they were surrounded and attacked by mercenaries of the English and Dutch. The Indians were ordered from the building and as they came forth, they were shot down. The rest were burned alive in the building.

The next day, the Governor of the Massachusetts Bay Colony declared : "A day of Thanksgiving, thanking God that they had eliminated over 700 men, women and children. For the next 100 years, every "Thanksgiving Day" ordained by a Governor or President was to honor that victory, thanking God that the battle had been won.

Source: Documents of Holland, 13 Volume Colonial Documentary History, letters and reports form colonial officials to their superiors and the King in England and the private papers of Sir William Johnson, British Indian agent for the New York colony for 30 years. Researched by William B. Newell (Penobscot Tribe) Former Chairman of the University of Connecticut Anthropology Department.

"Thanksgiving" a National Day of Mourning
An editorial by Publisher/Editor - Terri J Andrews

Never before in the history of America has a subset of this country's population been so misrepresented, lied about, and viciously condemned and criticized than the Native American Indians. Our own history books present a censored and false past that glorifies the "proud, pure and righteous" settlers, while stereotyping the original inhabitants as wild savages in war bonnets, running through the forest looking for food and scalping innocent children and women.

Take a look through a child's history book and you will often note an image of the pilgrims, colonists and pioneers that include log cabins, the pursuit of religious freedom and a strong sense of community. Now look for references to the Native peoples - words such as "primitive", "massacre", "Earth Gods" and "religious rituals" fill those same pages. Often times, paintings of the Native Indians hiding behind trees with tomahawks, watching the unsuspecting Europeans, are wrongly depicted to children.

This is a common thread woven through the fabric of American history - a lie that ties together a past built on stolen tradition and absent information retold in books authored by non-Native Americans.

The Thanksgiving holiday is a perfect example of censorship and the rewriting of truth. A portrait painted of the friendly Indians and the openhearted pilgrims coming together to feast after a long, sorry winter is accepted and tolerated by the American community. But this portrait is not correct. The story is much deeper than that; so much deeper that the Native American Indian community calls this day - The National Day of Mourning - and stages rallies to protest the holiday. Their reasons are valid. The true story of Thanksgiving is not something a country should be proud of.

Pilgrims and the Pure Truth

The Pilgrims of New England, who came to this country in 1620, were not simple refugees from England fighting against oppression and religious discrimination. They were political revolutionaries and part of the Puritan movement, which was considered objectionable and unorthodox by the King of the Church of England. They were outcasts in their own country, plotting to take over the government, causing some of the settlers to become fugitives in their own country.

These Puritan Pilgrims saw themselves as the "chosen elect", from the Bibles’ Book of Revelations and traveled to America to build "The Kingdom of God", also from Revelations. Strict with the scripture, they considered an enemy of anyone who did not follow suit. These beliefs were eventually transmitted to the other colonists, and the Puritan belief system quickly spread across the New England area.

Plymouth Rock of 1620 - Myth or Fact?

This is from an account of the Pilgrims landing -from the book The American Tradition. Is it myth or factual?

" After some exploring, the Pilgrims chose the land around Plymouth Harbor for their settlement. Unfortunately, they arrived in December and were not prepared for the New England weather. However, they were aided by friendly Indians, who gave them food and showed them how to grow corn. When warm weather came, the colonists planted, fished, hunted and prepared themselves for the next winter. After harvesting their first crop, they and their Indian friends celebrated the first Thanksgiving."

Answer - BOTH! The American Tradition account is a mix of myth and fact. Here’s why:

Fact:

1. Yes, the "Pilgrims" did come to America in 1620.

2. Yes they were inapt to care for themselves due to the harshness of the winter and their lack of stored food and supplies.

3. Yes, they did have a "feast".

Myth:

1. They were NOT met by "friendly" Indians who waved them in from the banks or welcomed their arrival. The Native people did not trust the whites, having encountered such foreigners before and suffering severe consequences. The Natives took pity on the settlers and only a (very) few Native Americans were actually "friendly" to the newcomers.

2. The Native community did not help the colonists because of a deep friendship, rather it was a custom of their culture and religion to help those who were in need.

3. The two groups did NOT come together to celebrate the harvest, as friends, and rejoice in the "first" Thanksgiving. They were meeting to discuss land rights.

4. Lastly, it was NOT the first Thanksgiving. An Autumnal harvest and banquet were a tradition of the Native people - a celebration that was a part of their culture for centuries.

The REAL story of the "first" Thanksgiving

In December of 1620 a splinter group of England's Puritan movement set anchor on American soil, a land already inhabited by the Wampanoag Indians. Having been unprepared for the bitter cold weather, and arriving too late to grow an adequate food supply, nearly half of the 100 settlers did not survive the winter.

On March 16th, 1621, a Native Indian named Samoset met the Englishmen for the first time. Samoset spoke excellent English, as did Squanto, another bilingual Patuxet who would serve as interpreter between the colonist and the Wampanoag Indians, who, lead by Chief Massasoit, were dressed as fierce warriors and outnumbered the settlers.

The Wampanoag already had a long history with the white man. For 100 years prior to the Pilgrim landing, they had encounters with European fishermen, as well as those who worked for slave traders. They had witnessed their communities being raided and their people stolen to be sold into slavery. They did not trust the newcomers.

But Squanto was an exception. He had lived with the British, after being captured by an earlier sailing vessel. He had a deep fondness for the Europeans - particularly that for a British Explorer named John Weymouth, who treated Squanto like a son.

Chief Massasoit and Samoset arrived at the colony with over 60 men, plus Squanto, who acted as a mediator between the two parties. Squanto was successful at making a peaceful agreement, though it is most likely that there was a great deal of friction between the Native community and the colonists.

The Englishmen felt that the Native peoples were instruments of the devil because of their spiritual beliefs and trusted only the Christian-baptized Squanto. The Native people were already non-trusting of the white man, except for Squanto, who looked at the Europeans as being of "Johns People."

It was Squanto who then moved to the English colony and taught them to hunt, trap, fish and to cultivate their own crops. He educated them on natural medicine and living off the land. A beloved friend of the Pilgrims, for if it wasn’t for him, they would not if survived. The Puritan Pilgrims thought of him as an Instrument of God.

Several months later the Wampanoag and the Pilgrims decided to meet again to negotiate a land treaty needed by the settlers. They hoped to secure land to build the Plymouth Plantation for the Pilgrims. The Native people agreed to meet for a 3-day negotiation "conference". As part of the Wampanoag custom - or perhaps out of a sense of charity towards the host - the Native community agreed to bring most of the food for the event.

The peace and land negotiations were successful and the Pilgrims acquired the rights of land for their people.

In 1622 propaganda started to circulate about this "First Thanksgiving". Mourts Relation, a book written to publicize the so-called "wonderfulness" of Plymouth, told of the meeting as a friendly feast with the Natives. The situation was glamorized by the Pilgrims, possibly in an effort to encourage more Puritans to settle in their area. By stating that the Native community was warm and open-armed, the newcomers would be more likely to feel secure in their journey to New England.

The sad, sad truth (what happened next)

What started as a hope for peace between the settlers and the Wampanoag, ended in the most sad and tragic way. The Pilgrims, once few in number, had now grown to well over 40,000 and the Native American strength had weakened to less than 3,000. By 1675, one generation later, tension had grown between the Europeans and the Native Indians. The Wampanoag called in reinforcements from other surrounding tribes.

Metacomet, her and son of Chief Massasoit, became Chief of the Wampanoag Nation. The English, who referred to Metacomet as King Phillip, started a war between the two parties when they unjustly tried and convicted three innocent Wampanoags of murdering an Englishman, John Sassamon, even though it was well know and accepted that Sassamon’s death was truthfully caused by an accidental fall in a frozen pond.

Metacomet, furious and in despair, sought revenge for the deaths of his tribesmen by declaring war. The settlers killed another Native man, hence settling off the beginning of what is now known as "King Phillips War." Many Native communities throughout Massachusetts and Connecticut rallied with the Wampanoags, but the power of the English was overpowering. Metacomet moved many of his people to New York. Sadly, his wife and 9-year-old son were captured and sold into slavery. Brokenhearted, he returned to his homeland - and soon killed.

His death ends the Kings Phillips War and the remaining Wampanoags, and their allies, were either killed or deported as slaves for thirty shillings each. This slave trade was so successful that several Puritan ship owners began a slave-trading business by raiding the coast for Native American Indians and trading them for black slaves of Africa. The black slaves were then sold to colonists in the south. Hence, the Pilgrims were one of the founders of the American-based slave trading industry.

Thanksgiving Today

For many Native American Indians of present day, the traditional "Thanksgiving" holiday is not recognized as the Pilgrim/Indian day popularized in children’s history books; rather it is a day of sorrow and shame. Sorrow for the fallen lives of those who were lost so long ago, and shame for living in a country who honors people who used religion and self-righteousness to condone murder, treachery and slavery.

For the many in the Native community, "Thanksgiving" is a day to reflect on what has happened (past and present); to pray to the Creator that more people will know of the truth and show respect towards the fallen culture; to fast the body; to protest the commercialization of Thanksgiving; to share their time with the less fortunate in soup kitchens or shelters; and some take part in a family meal, honoring the spirit of Chief Massasoit and his initial charity and intentions of the Wampanoag Indians — who first came to initiate a peace agreement between them and the newcomers.

Celebrating the spirit of the holiday - without the propaganda that is attached, is a respectful way to share the day with the Native American people. Understanding the true historical significance of their contributions to the day, as well as what the consequences of their efforts led to be, is even more important. Without the assistance of Squanto, and the agreement for peace made between the two cultures, I find it unlikely that the settlers would have lived so well or even lived at all.

The Native people died so that the colony could flourish. They need to be remembered, respected and mourned. With them - the Native forefathers - is a much better place to lay your fondness and your thanks.

It is with their spirit of generosity and charity that you should place your foundation for a true and honest "Thanksgiving."


Live as though today is all you have, give thanks everyday for what you have and never go to sleep at night ashamed of your deeds.

The above information came from:http://www.unitednativeamerica.com/bureau/bwa_2.html
Pilgrims were not trying to establish Platonic communism based on their Christian beliefs
15 Wednesday, 26 November 2008 10:28
Shawn Ritenour
It is not true that the Pilgrims tried to implement a Platonic (or even explicitly Christian) communism.

While the Pilgrims original property arrangements certainly were communal, this was definitely NOT because of their religious beliefs. It was foisted upon them by their colonial sponsors after the sponsors learned that they would not be granted a monopoly of fishing rights in Cape Cod. The sponsors' original agreement with the Pilgrims stipulated that the Pilgrims were to work for four days for the sponsoring company and then would have two days to work for themselves. The sponsors later changed their deal and told the Pilgrims that they would have to work all six days of the work week for the sponsors. At the end of seven years, the Pilgrims would be granted title to the property they worked. The Pilgrims were not happy with the change, several of them recognizing that the new arrangement would make them virtual slaves of the sponsors, but they went along with the deal because many had already made large investments toward the move and they were convinced that emigrating to the New World is what God wanted them to do.

Bradford's establishing private property was in no way a repudiation of any belief they had that Christian charity requires a Platonic communism. They definitely were NOT trying to implement such a system. The Pilgrims' move to private property was, in fact, a move to a properly Christian ethic as it regards property.
WHO Cares?
14 Tuesday, 25 November 2008 17:23
Wingnut
Hi again. Inquisitor, if nobody cares, as you say, how come YOU care enough to get your hind-end in a bunch? You sure get bent out of shape over something that nobody cares about. What's the story? Are you full of crap? Apparently. YOU take it somewhere else, I-lady. This will be the last time I address your aimlessness.
RE Wingnut Land of the Lost
13 Tuesday, 25 November 2008 15:52
Eric E
Mr. Nut:

“I don't promote the type of socialism they fear, though. I promote Christian, Quaker, Amish, barn-raisings and potlucks, and the story of Stone Soup. Just take a look at Quaker tools, for example. Quaker tools last many generations and are used nearly constantly by the entire commune. Capitalism-built tools last a week, even though they are mostly unused and sitting hoarded-up in a God-owned garage... that some capitalist is claiming ownership-of. Ownership is illegal by our very "owned" ownership laws,“

How exactly are you able to comment on this web site? The communes you extol could not and would not invent computers! The very tools you use to espouse your ramblings are the product of capitalism. Further the groups you reference to force your utopian vision on the rest, have title to the land they communally work, and are in a Country that allows them the express rights to their religious freedom. Go raise some capital, buy some land and build your community – preferably Waco Texas – I think Obama might bring back Janet Reno as Attorney General.
Trolls
12 Tuesday, 25 November 2008 15:03
Inquisitor
Wingnut, if any "controllism" is exhibited towards you it is the same "controllism" exhibited towards psychotic kooks by groups of normal people. You are an insane psychopath that trolls various blogs at length with your inane, clueless, ignorant rants. No one cares. No one even reads half the crap of your eye-glaze inducing nonsense. Now run along and go spout this nonsense to cults that believe it, like Marxoids.
Trolls
11 Tuesday, 25 November 2008 14:51
Inquisitor
Poor_clyde, I'd take any approval from wingnut as equivalent to a certificate saying "Congrats, you're a kook!"
Land of the Lost
10 Tuesday, 25 November 2008 10:11
Wingnut
Hey Poor Clyde... don't you worry about a thing. You're moving in the right direction... in being able to see-thru the con called capitalism. Eventually you will see the servitude and extortion... and so will the pummelers... as soon as they drop the denial and own-up. I've debated this thing to a bloody stump at various blogs over the past 15 years... and I usually, eventually, get threatened with controlism... as happened yet again here...

http://www.chancelitton.com/?p=131

Its a decent read if you have an open mind. Most of the commentors here, don't, but... I suspect you do, Poor Clyde. Welcome to the land of clarity. Unfortunately, pyramid schemes like capitalism can't be reformed, only collapsed and outlawed. Servitude has to become illegal before anything can happen with the DOJ. Meantime, we can only watch it get too top-heavy from so many rat-racers trying to climb to set-4-life land. It will collapse on its own, soon. It appears to have already started.

I'd tell these personal-attacking commentors to do a google IMAGE SEARCH for 'pyramid of capitalist' so they could see the full color diagram... proving it was discovered to be a sham way back in the early 1900's, but they'd just argue for the sake of arguing. The "Yay America" factor is very strong, and deluded. Poor Clyde, keep up the fine work in investigating the con/belief called capitalism. It really doesn't matter what other over-inflated commodity is attempting to back the greenstamp (money) over-inflation. What matters is that people get addicted-to and rat-race-towards... enjoyments... and also that the 18 year olds are forced to join the competer's church, or die of starvation and exposure. If you want to go deep, notice the line between "out there" and "in here". Its the line the parents throw their kids across at 18... when they do the policy reversal from share, to fight. Notice how many general populous comments contain "go out there and" in them, especially from parents. Study that, and step outside the pyramid and notice the children all arguing and blaming within the pyramid. The members/climbers (servants to the imperialism/empire) say "that's life", "its the world", and "get real" about it. Its not life, world, or real, its a man-made pyramid scheme whose Free Mason/Illuminati inventors are long-ago dead of old age. That's why I am against the SYSTEM called capitalism, and not against the uneducated or forced-in people filling roles within it. Once you see capitalism as a children's toybox tug-o-war, and once you look at those children in a loving farm-mom way, you won't hate the children. They're just uneducated in seeing pyramids of servitude. Nobody needs to be lynched over getting conned into capitalism. The lemonade standing game they are playing needs to die... and will, though. "Standing" any supply... means "standing guard" and is a type of rationing based upon monetary discrimination.

There. Between the url reference, and the info here... this should bootstrap you a bit further down the trail of seeing thru the con, Clyde. I'm impressed by what I've seen so far from you. The "gang" here is just angry because we took away their abilities to blame something other than themselves. They've got a disease I call BBaRD (BARD)... blaming, bashing, and resenting disease. Its normal for folks who do tug-o-warring in a competer's church pyramid scheme. They should stick with the cooperator's church instead... called Christianity and socialism. I don't promote the type of socialism they fear, though. I promote Christian, Quaker, Amish, barn-raisings and potlucks, and the story of Stone Soup. Just take a look at Quaker tools, for example. Quaker tools last many generations and are used nearly constantly by the entire commune. Capitalism-built tools last a week, even though they are mostly unused and sitting hoarded-up in a God-owned garage... that some capitalist is claiming ownership-of. Ownership is illegal by our very "owned" ownership laws, as the original owners (Earth creators) were never consulted about selling or ownership-entitling Earth materials... and thus things made there-from. Best regards! Wingnut
to: poor_clyde
9 Tuesday, 25 November 2008 07:21
Lysander.Spooner
There is no such thing as "intrinsic value." Value is always and everywhere subjective, and arises from the preferences of the user/consumer. Read Carl Menger's "Principles of Economics," and join the post-1871 world.
fiat money, not capitalism
8 Monday, 24 November 2008 16:02
mhmjr
poor_clyde: You seem to be blaming capitalism for the evils of fiat money. These are not one and the same. Capitalism is independent of the currency used. It is the currency having no value that is the problem and creates the negative situation you describe. If the currency were backed by something of intrinsic value, as when the US Dollar was backed by the Gold Standard none of what you wrote would apply. The Fed chairman discussing the confidence of the dollar...why would he say that? Becuase the US dollar has no backing of gold or anything else to provide it with real value.
Question with regards to poor clyde
7 Monday, 24 November 2008 14:46
Spouting theory with Little idea of its validity
Your idea about a "zero sum" transaction I think is not exactly correct. If every exchange was a zero sum transaction it would imply that all of a specific goods were of equal value to all people.

Good "X" from person "A" is exchanged for Good "Y" from person "B"

if this was a zero sum transaction according to person "A" good "X" and good "Y" would be of the same value. Also according to peron "B" good "X" and "Y" would be of the same value. Therefore Persons "A" and "B" value goods "X" and "Y" the same or else the transaction would not have taken place. This also shows us that all members of soceity value "X" and "Y" the same, if they did not "A" and "B" would trade with someone else who had a diffrent value scale for goods "X" and "Y" as to obtain something higher on their personal value scale for good "X" or "Y"

The Fundamental reason that we exchange goods, is so that we can obtain something that is more valueable to us than what we own. The Varying nature of individuals skill sets allows us to be more efficent using specific goods than others. This intern leads to the division of labor.

If what you are saying is true than no value could be created by exchange, because we would all be equally proficent at being a surgeon as a garbage man (not to demean being a garbage man, I dont know how you deal with the smell, I could not do that)

Exchange between individuals was discussed by Vilfredo Pareto, with regards to Pareto optimality where in a exchange both parties benefit. This leads us to believe that in a Pareto optimal free society all exchanges bring each individual closer to the optimal structure of production. (assuming perfect information and perfect market transparency)

Finally, you are correct when you say that today our capitalism is based on a fiat-paper money with no real value. But, if you read Mises, he talks about money as a third type of good, a medium of exchange. Neither a Capital nor Consumer good. The reason that we exchange our value for it is that we know we can exchange that money for goods in the future. Since the federal government has monopolized the production of currency, we can no longer have faith that the freemarket is regulating the size of the money supply. And can not truely calculate the vaule of any tranaction because we do not know how much the money supply is being inflated, by the federal reserve.
Trolls
6 Monday, 24 November 2008 12:49
Inquisitor
Ignore "wingnut". It is a hysterical troll, not worthy of addressing.
Wingnut
5 Monday, 24 November 2008 12:31
Economist
Wingnut, just as your name suggets, you need to seek treatment. Antipsychotic drugs can be effective in 68% of the patients with bizzare delusions. But as eMedicine site says: "Because of poor insight into their pathological experiences, patients with delusional disorder may rarely seek psychiatric help."
Capitalism and money
4 Monday, 24 November 2008 11:00
poor_clyde
In a society where liberty prevails, I view capitalism as the conditiion whereupon man is left to capitalize on his own abilities to produce. As the pilgrims soon learned, every human is a consumer but view will produce absent short term incentives. Capitalism in the modern day sense is simply the creation of wealth out of thin air without production, the printing of currency, fractional reserve banking, etc; in other words a sophisticated "con game" to harness slaves without them being able to detect it. I'm working on a white paper titled "Exonomics," the study of exchange between producer and consumer. If you'll excuse my taking up an inordinate amount of space, I've included my concept of money as it is understood to be in the study of exonomics.

MONEY

Money is the medium of exchange that establishes a zero balance transaction. For example, if a farmer trades another person's labor for food, normally called a barter transaction, the farmer views the laborer's labor as money in payment for the food. The laborer then used his productivity, labor, as money to purchase the food. Conversely, the laborer views the farmer's food as money in payment for his labor. The farmer then uses his productivity, food, as money to purchase the labor of the laborer. Both the food and the labor have intrinsic value and each establishes a zero balance transaction because of their intrinsic value.
There are two kinds of money; the one is comprised of some¬thing that has intrinsic value, like the food and the labor above, while the other is comprised of something that has little or no intrinsic value. The money with the little or no intrinsic value fails to establish a zero balance transaction. Consequently, it is not money as defined. therefore, in order for the receiver of the money with little or no intrinsic value, he must be con¬fident that he can find someone with something of value who will take his worthless money for something that does in fact have intrinsic value. It is not till he is able to pass off his “money” with little or no intrinsic value for something with intrinsic value is he able to complete the zero balance transaction.
The first money with intrinsic value is called value based money while the money with the little or no intrinsic value can be called "confidence based" money. That is money that the recipient mus have confidence that he can find someone who he will be aple to pawn it off on. Since the word confidence is the word from which the word "con" is derived, we can call money with little or no intrinsic value "con-money." Since con-money relies upon confidence to retain the façade of value, such confidence is exposed to the whims of the relative confidence of the people engaged in its use. Also, since it has no intrinsic value, it is impossible to use as a real store of value. Capitalism, if you will, is based entirely on con-money.
While we can see on the surface that it requires more than one transaction to arrive at a zero balance transaction when using con-money, in many cases it may take several transactions before the algebraic sum of all the transactions finally arrives at a zero balance.
While the "comfortable user" of con-money sees nothing wrong with such a valueless money system, he should take notice that he will always give up something of value to receive it and he will always give up something of value to pay interest on it.
What's the first thing the Chairman of the Federal Reserve says to Congress while giving his annual report? Before getting into the substance of his report he tells Congress that "con¬fidence in the dollar (valueless money system) is still good." Now why do you suppose he finds it necessary to say something like that?
"Wow, Wingnut." In reply to the previous commenter [Wingnut].
3 Monday, 24 November 2008 09:45
John Alden Xl
Seems you keep a narrow reading list. You might broaden your education before proselytizing. In your zealotry, you might look up and learn the difference between Capitalism and Corporatism. I don’t suppose you find time in between your rigid ideological meetings and pamphlet readings. You might look into Weber's "The Protestant Ethic & The Spirit of Capitalism." You might look into the Austrian School of Economics. You might try to discern the difference between creative ingenuity of the free market system vs. Economic Fascism. You might consult with Orwell on "Oligarchic Collectivism." Time moves on. Communism is a disproved faith-based economic superstition that has lead to the major holocausts of the 20th century - perpetrated by Utopians, including the fella in Germany - and including folks with narrow angry minds like your own. Read broadly, read well. Take in the silence of your own potential for knowing. Or you can remain strident - and confidently wrong. That's between you and God.
Larry
2 Monday, 24 November 2008 09:34
B Hughes
Spoken like a true hysterical underachiever.
Pyramid Schemes Like Capitalism
1 Monday, 24 November 2008 09:06
Wingnut
Holy cow, what a bucket of capitalism propaganda. Just a pig trough full of coddle and nurture feel-good la-la. Phew! You DO see the pyramid scheme symbol on the back of the USA one dollar bill, right? You DO see the servitude infestation in capitalism, right? And do you see the "pay up or lose your wellbeing" Chicago mob-like felony extortion widespread within capitalism? Do you see the "join or starve" felony extortion done to the 18 year olds... by this ugly competer's church called capitalism? See how forcing competer's religions onto 18 year olds... kills membership in the cooperator's church (Christianity/socialism)?? Do you understand that AmWay (American Way) (New World Order) got "the exclusive" (legal tender) on the TYPE of survival coupons (money) accepted in supply depots (stores) and leverages 18 years olds into the organization via that felony activity as well? (It puts AmWay-coupon slaving requirements called price tags... on all the survival goods). Do you understand how farmyard pyramids work... from your childhood?? Remember?? Upper 1/3 are "heads in the clouds" while the kids on the bottom ALWAYS GET HURT from the weight of the world's knees in their backs? Still with me? Do you see anything illegal, immoral, or just plain sick... in any of this pyramid scheme's activities?

Us American Christian socialists are still patiently awaiting the natural fall of the pyramid-o-servitude, or the busting of the free marketeers felony... by the USA Dept of Justice. Us Christians are VERY CLOSE to issuing a cease and desist order until the servitude and inequality goes away... which means it turns into a commune. Commune is a word we LOVE when used in the word "community"... but its one the caps HATE when used in the term "commune-ism". Go fig. PROGRAMMED!!

Time to level the felony pyramid scheme called capitalism. Abolish economies and ownershipism worldwide, and hurry. Economies just cause rat-racing, and rat-racing causes felony pyramiding. BUST IT, America! Look to the USA military supply/survival system... (and the USA public library system) for socialism and morals done right. Equal, owner-less, money-less, bill-less, timecard-less, and concerned with growth of value-criteria OTHER THAN money-value. Quit doing monetary discrimination immediately, and make it illegal. There are MANY measurement criteria of "value"... not just dollars. Try morals, efficiency, discrimination-levels, repairability, etc etc. Economies are cancerous tumors, and to cheer for their growth... is just insane. Profiting causes inflation, so if caps LIKE inflation, and if they LIKE a terrible time in afterlife when they meet the planet's ORIGINAL OWNER before caps tried to squat it all with ownershipism, then keep it up with the felony pyramiding. I dare you. While us Christians are finally bulldozing that pyramid scheme back to level, lets make servitude and "join or starve" (get a job or die) illegal in the USA, and lets level the architecture seen in USA courtrooms, too. Right now, USA courtrooms are church simulators or "fear chambers", by special design. Sick.

Larry "Wingnut" Wendlandt
MaStars - Mothers Against Stuff That Ain't Right
(anti-capitalism-ists)
Bessemer MI USA

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